From Geovel56

Hi all,

Shriver: I can follow the step by step up until about point 7, at which point it seemed a little ambiguous. Where reversing the cap/diode combination is that the polarity or the order in which they appear?

We discovered we had a "-" ve ignition coil and therefore instead of working from the positive side, we had to work from the negative side. Everything had to be reversed. Please re-read the verification process as to how we knew we had a "-" ve coil. We removed the thirty diode chain completely from the circuit and connected one end to the top of the spark plug, and the other end at the spark plug base. We then flipped the switch back and forth, and didn't get a spark. That is because in that particular configuration, the HV was not being blocked and therefore didn't force the HV to go through the spark plug. When we reversed the thirty diode chain, it did block everything coming from the HV coil (aside from the diode blocking, the HV was also seeing the 500K resistors) and the only available path the HV could have taken was directly through the spark plug, hence the spark was observed. The reason we disconnected the diode chain FIRST from the rest of the circuit, was to make sure the HV wouldn't hit the inverter in the event we did have a "-" ve coil, and therefore only testing for the direction of the HV using the diode chain alone.

Moving the diode/resistor string is also something I'm unclear about. Is the circuit diagram after these changes? (I'm assuming so), in which case this is a circuit for a -ve coil(?). Perhaps it would be possible to mark the points on the diagram with the steps in the description so that it's clear where we should be making changes. Despite not being an electronics person, I can still follow most of what you're saying, or deduce what you meant, but some of it I can't.

No. This posted circuit diagram is for a "+" ve coil as we originally thought we had. After seeing we had no spark whatsoever from the coil once the LV part of the circuit was attached but NOT PLUGGED IN, we realized we had a "-" ve coil, and hence had to operate the LV part of the circuit from the negative side, which meant reversing everything.

Great idea about the diode/resistor combo btw. I guess that could have saved a few inverters

Wrt intermittent plasma discharge, if you have a smaller spark gap does it make it any more consistent (if less impressive)? If so then it looks like it simply needs more voltage. I have a suspicion about the diode acting as a rectifier.

A diode is a rectifier. It only allows current to flow in one direction only!

I don't think it's acting in the way you believe it is. Again I must stress that I know next to nothing about electronics, but wouldn't that only rectify half of the wave? and therefore be less power than you're expecting?

The leading diode (after the resistor) is half-wave rectification as we are only using one side ("+") or ("-") of the inverter, depending on what type of coil we have. The circuit is for a "+" ve coil, but we had to reverse everything. Just look at the circuit and turn the "arrows" of every diode the other way. Also, the capacitor had to be turned the other way as well, i.e. instead of the "+" side of the capacitor being on top as in the original diagram, it is turned upside down, so the "-" is on top. Instead of all the diodes "pointing to the right, they had to be reversed to point to the left. The diode in parallel with the capacitor had to be pointing down, instead of pointing up as the original circuit showed.

Again, the circuit shown was designed for a "+" ve ignition coils, as we expected that is what we had. Unfortunately, we didn't and had to make corrections at the bench. LOL

Finally, you have 2 x 12v sources. Do they need to be isolated or can they be common?

They are 2 separate sources. One feeds the ignition circuit (just like in your car). The other 12VDC source (another car battery for instance) is the power input for the inverter to yield a 120VAC.

Poynt99: geo, ... also, i would suggest using the diode types ossie suggested and is using, the 1N5404, and fewer (16) would be better also. the diodes are there for protection, but they should be able to "switch" as fast as possible to maximize the effect.

Poynt99, the 1N5404 diodes are only 400 volts 3 amps vs. 1N4007 diodes at 1000 volts 1 amp. A standard ignition coil HV output typically ranges from 30Kv to 45Kv. That is why we have thirty 1N4007 diodes. 1N5404 diodes x 16 is only 6,400 volts of protection. If the HV coil output somehow fed back to the LV side of the circuit, it would never handle the 30Kv - 45Kv hitting it. Although the 1N5404 diodes have a 1200 watt rating (400 volts x 3 amps) vs. the 1N4007 at 1000 watts (1000 volts x 1 amp), it is not the amperage (substantially less than 1 amp) coming from the HV coil we need to worry about "blasting" the inverter... it's the volts!

We still need to figure out why the plasma arcs are sporadic even though we observed the HV spark every time. Any help, ideas, and thoughts are welcome!

Regards,
Geo

From GotoLuc
@Everyone, Please take care of your eyes!!! I have a feeling that too much exposure to this spark will lead to eye damage. My eyes are still feeling kind of dry and find I need to re-focus more than before. So wear UV protective shaded glasses when looking at the spark.
Luc

From GotoLuc
Wow! another great video and demonstrated by Peter Lindeman. Please do thank him on my behalf.

I think you are the first one to ask me about how I came to this circuit. It is not my doing!... it is God's Grace. I ask for His help and guidance to find something that could help just days before finding it. The circuit came the day after I posted a reply to S1R on his Yahoo Group. What I was trying to do is to get my inverter to short circuit at the spark plug once the HV of the coil jumped the gap. I had so many components to try to do this and at one point I noticed that the spark was strong and wondered what part of the circuit was doing this Huh"... so I started eliminating one thing at a time to find the cause and eventually found this simple circuit.
Luc

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.960.html

From Callanan

Hi All,
Please see my latest video here.
http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9
Or here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDU3U1gzLzc

First of all I would like to explain the purpose of my work in this thread and how I have come to this very important latest discovery. It was Luc who showed us all a very interesting and simple circuit he discovered whilst attemping to work out how SR1. could be powering an engine with only water in his videos. In my previous posts I was able to reproduce the effect of exploding pure water with an electrical circuit and verify Luc's circuit and the results. I went on to show how the basic effect could be done with little input power and also at high repetition rates comparible to that of a running engine's ignition system.

With the help of my good friend Ben, it was discovered that exploding water with electrical energy was shown to have more energy output then what was required as electrical input according to the published Graneau paper as described in my previous posts. This paper explained that the released energy was from the conversion of the molecular bond energy in liquid water. This conversion occured when liquid water came into contact with an electrical plasma and the liquid water was converted into a cool fog. No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy. This process and conversion did not dissassociate or split the atomic bonds of the H2O molecule but did split the molecular bonds that hold water in a liquid state. The energy released, although significant, is far less than if the H2O molecule was split and then the hydrogen was to be ignited.

The above mentioned circuits were based on having a charged capacitor and blocking diode/diodes connected across a spark plug. Then a HV spark from an ignition coil is also placed across the spark plug. This ignition spark ionised the air and any water in contact with the spark plug electrodes. This ionisation allowed the energy in the capacitor to be discharged and cause a strong and bright electrical plasma discharge between the spark plug electrode. The water on the electrodes, when in contact with the plasma, would explode as described in the Graneau paper. The diagrams or schematics, videos and pictures of these built and proven circuits can be found in my previous posts on this thread.

Now to my latest discovery. Whilst looking at the ionising effect of the ignition spark and how it allowed the capacitor energy to piggy back itself and jump across the spark plug gap, I wondered if it was possible and if there was another way to do this that did not required a HV ignition spark to ionise the spark plug gap. After a number of tests and trials using a fouled or blocked with water spark plug gap, I soon realised that two things were going on. I could see that the water in the clogged spark plug gap would bubble slightly and that the water itself had significant resistance such that not enough current could be discharged from the capacitor. This was because there was not much ionisation going on in the water itself. Also, on noticing the bubbles I realised that there was electrolysis or the splitting of the H2O molecule going on and that hydrogen was being released from the water that was clogging the gap. So it was then I realised that to get more current flowing in the water so as to be able to discharge the capacitor, I needed to lower the resistance of the water. I needed to get the ionisation to occur in the water itself. So this was simple, I just needed to add an electrolyte to the water so this is what I did. I added SALT to the water.

As soon as I did this and sprayed it on the spark plug gap to block it, it almost immediately bubbled away and exploded indicating it was being split. After only a few tests without any HV iginition coil or ignition spark I got it to repeatedly explode!!!! The spark plug gap is a factor and the amount of salt in the water but it all works and they are just some variable factors to the performance! The explosions are unlike anything I have experienced before. They are far more powerfull and loud and very HOT! They contained on demand genertaed hydrogen explosions!!!! Please see my videos above.

With this understanding I then was able to simplify the circuit to do this considerably. Please see the schematic below. You only need a capacitor of a few hundred uF and a bridge rectifier. You can use an inverter or the power from the wall to power it and that's all!

The power yielded is far greater than that of the cool fog explosions! These explosions are HOT hydrogen explosion and are very powerfull! The salt water is being split on demand in the spark plug gap and the capacitor discharge plasma is igniting the hydrogen. It is now my opinion that if the videos of SR1. are real indeed then this is what is occurring inside his engine which will justify the power observed as my experiments have shown that the previously described cool fog explosions could not account for the power shown in the firings of his engine. He has also verified that his engine does get hot which is not possible with the cool fog explosions of the previous circuits in this thread. It is likely that the water SR1. uses has salt or other minerals in it that he may not know of, particularly if it is from a bore. This can be enough to reduce the resistance of the water. I must also point out that it is also possible that capacitor70's motorcycle engine ran on this process as he did mention that he was using bore water to power it. Any acid or base can be used in the water to change it's PH level and lower it's resistance.

But now it becomes a requirement to be able to get alot of ionised or PH altered water to the spark plug so as to block it for this to work in an engine. Also, because the ignition circuit is not required, the cylinder's compression will be required to also condensate enough water in the spark plug gap to get it to explode. The operation will be vey similar, if not the same as a diesel engine. But many variables will have to be tested with the right combinations for a particular engine for this to work. Such as the spark plug gap, cylinder compression, type of spark plug, carburetor or water injection method, conductivity of the water and so on. But I believe that this process can be used to power an engine as it yields significantly more power than the previous cool fog water explosions that have been previously described.

There is room to be able to derive an ignition type circuit to create this same described effect and HHO explosion but use the ignition timing and even the HV spark to merely trigger the connection of the capacitor to the spark plug. This can also be done via another spark gap. But this will be explored and reported further in later experiements. Such a circuit will allow the effect and process to be used in a standard HV ignition timed engine. But it is important to understand and show that HV has NOTHING to do with the resulting explosion and output energy of this process as I have done above.

Regards,
Ossie

Hi Ossie,
I posted about this in my forum last night. This is great work!

But this quote: "No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy."

If that is from Graneu (spelling??)...he is wrong and so are a lot of explanations on his site and it doesn't matter about credentials. Academia wants to take something and force it to fit inside of their box of what they already believe.

Luc's method does cause an explosion...followed by an implosion. The H&O ARE disassociating regardless of what he wants to believe and claiming it is simply molecules separating from each other are simply ridiculous.

Take a spark plug with Luc's method and srew a thick bolt on it to create a small cavity that the spark fires in. Spray water on it. Ignite repeatedly with a piece of paper over it...at the end of each spark, the paper is sucked to the bolt. That is classic browns gas implosion following an explosion and you can see it with your own eyes if you use dark sunglasses and look at the flame really close. I see the colors and the hydrogen is igniting showing proof of h/o separation.

No significant motive power is because of the re-association of h/o causing a vacuum....that is why on these spark plug circuits, there needs to be a Meyer EEC (electron extraction circuit) from the annode of the plug back to the input with a bulb in the middle to burn off electrons that are freed during separation...then the bang will be bigger without forming a vacuum right after. ALL COLD EXPLOSION.

I still need to test the salt water spray on Luc's plug to see what happens. Circuit simplified might be nice but it isn't the same type of spark. Did you spray the salt water on the spark using Luc's method?

From Qiman

Hi Ben,

Item 55 is a bulb that will burn off electrons freed in water bath when h/o are separated. I don't know if one inline like that will work with Luc's spark method.

I can't find an easy pic to post but take that bulb and take the right side of it to the + of the cell (annode) and the left side to the hv output of the ignition coil..that would be analogous of Meyer's method. it could be on constantly or as in one of his patents that it is on a flip flop..bulb is off during on pulse but as soon as it is off, bulb connects to pull electrons freed.

The concept is valid and sound...if it is that easy to apply to this method, I have no idea..experiment will tell and it is what deserves some attention. The water only reforms because the electrons are right there for the h/o to reassemble.

I see no reason why not to use moisture + hho from a wfc..even if low volumes, you will get a propagated explosion from that spark...that has already been demonstrated. If the EEC method is done right to the HHO and also on the HHO as it is leaving the cell in order to strip electrons from the oxygen atom, it will destabilize the oxygen further making the potential for energy release upon burn way higher. Then that electron stripped oxygen in the HHO from a cell going to Luc's spark would take the electrons freed from the gap. But simply adding HHO might make this whole concept of putting EEC to the plug system obsolete.

Any car that can simply run on anything...even at idle is turning an alternator even at low speed...the alternator windings can be tapped before the voltage regulator for serious gas production in a good cell. I have made a lot of gas in my cells at 36 watts or less with 1 single tube set! The power from an alternator before the voltage regulator is MUCH MUCH more than that! Anyway, point being HHO isn't going to be in low supply from the power the alternator puts out. HHO + Moisture + Luc's spark. Why just mess with water because the HHO is too easy to supplement to the mix.

Hey everyone here is a new video you should see.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr_xWnej-gc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E_dAh5ZRcs <~~~this one is just for fun!!!!

Hi All,

I found this on the S1r9....forum here :
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.0.html

As SR1 described it I think its like this :

(1) The 110V DC is designed to create a strong magnetic field using the spark plug - this I think may be the "softening up" required to be done to the water molecule.

Interstingly on the Papp motor ( which appears to be a water motor heavily disguised ) , there are coils around the water feed pipe which I think may do the same "softening up". This should polarise or at least start to break down the water by putting it under magnetic stress.

But also, as the 110V DC is removed, the magnetic field collapses from the spark plug inside the engine cylinder, and this magnetic field collapse may produce a strong EMF ( voltage ) that may stress water vapor already in the engine cyclinder and may provide a rapid step up in the stress on the water in the cyclinder of the engine, at that moment.

Thinking about this a bit more, it appears this might be a two stage pulse stress on the water, *possibly* similar to the like the "pulse train" Meyer showed in his patent and shows on his drawings.

(2) The 110V DC is applied all the time to the spark plug - except at the exact moments the ignition coil is firing through the spark plug. SR1 cleverly uses the distributor to send a pulse to his relays to open and close them at the required times to achieve this.

The 8 relays in the box that SR1 uses appears to be nothing more than one relay per cylinder for his V8 engine.

Each relay ( one per cyclinder ) is connected to the distributor to disconnect the 110V DC from each plug just before the spark fires through the spark plug and then reconnects immediately afterward to re-establish the magnetic field through the spark plug again.

According to SR1, it seems that the 110V DC is *not* what burns the water, rather the ignition spark does - but his circuits appear to have the coil current up to 10 Amps, which at 50 KV is quite a boot.

Intersting point -

If I understand GotoLucs circuit correctly, what SR1 is saying is slightly different to what GotoLuc is doing. GotoLuc uses a cap to pulse the spark plug, *but* doesnt have the 110V DC applied to the spark plug just before the spark fires and so no magnetic field is present before the capacitor fires.

FYI - the text from the above URL: ( http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.0.html )

"Super God
Did you know that s1r9a9m9 started posting again on the waterfuel1978 forum!
This is what he posted yesterday:  The relay I used has two sets of coils and resisters in them. The  same thing can be made by blocking the currents from the plug wire  from going into the inverter and blocking the current from the  inverter going to the plug wire, but leaving an open loop for both  at the plug by grounding the inverter at the plug base and no where else on the vehicle.

The inverter has a constant current going to the plug except when the distrubitor sends fire through the plug wire. The inverter needs to be blocked only for the time it takes the plug to fire from the distrubitor, and the same for the distrubitor blocked from the inverter.

What goes on with the plug tip? well the inverter sends a current to the tip where there is water , the plug tip now has a magnetic field around it when the plug is fired from the distrubitor the field is incressed and the extra amps causes a arc to form in the clyender that expands the water as like a lighting bolt would. You can expand water but you cant compress it. Yes if to much water is in the cylender it will lock the engine. Thats why the timeing is set after TDC .

Gas will not burn, gas vapor will burn. A carberator is designed to vaporize gas as it inters the intake manifold under a vacummn. Water will become partly vaporized and the rest is used to incress the compression in the clyender. A fuel injecter sprays a mist of fluid not vapor. It will partly vaporize in the clyender before the plug fires. That is why cars with carbs and cars with injecters have defferent time even for the same size engines. There is a few degrees defferents in them.

The relays I used did not have any numbers or names or any marking on them at all. The parts I found that would work cost $600.00(US) for each clyender, and I was ask not to give out that info becaused of what they were used for. Home Land Secuirty Issue's. I dont ask , I dont tell. Plus how many people would spend their rent money for the parts. None of this can be patented and sold.

I hope this will help others finish their projects."
Thoughts and ideas welcome!
Cheers & beers,
Steve

From GoToLuc

Hi everyone,

I would like to share video's of a replicator who had a great idea to use a smoke glass to show the spark size on video. He also has tested to see if gasoline will react differently in the next video. Also in the last video (just posted) he demonstrates a circuit design by Overunity user: capacitor70 and shows the power between gas and water.

Luc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eSlS3f7gn0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWBcA6TC0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foytvHDYgEg

Hi everyone,

Here is how the water sparkplug circuit and Gray tube works. Some here assume when I compared the Gray tube to the water spark plug circuit by Luc that a spark gap is a spark gap...it is not...please read so you can see really what is going on...in my opinion and I do have experiments to back my beliefs.

----------
The HV from the coil moves through the HV diode to the + of the low voltage source to ground back to itself...it seeks ground through the diode. That diode is open. When the HV is off, take a volt meter and put the neg on ground and + on the hv diode cathode/output. You will see that you can measure the low voltage side's voltage potential on the output of the diode because the diode is open.

Many people think the diode is automatically closed and won't let the hv through but that isn't true. That is the whole point that diodes have reverse ratings...and if the diodes were automatically always shut, then the low voltage from the annode/input could never get through.

Also, the diode closing is not instantaneous...it is fast, yes, but not instantaneous...once the hv moves through the hv diode...it takes a bit of time for it to get the reverse current through it in order to slam shut.

The HV potential, which is the voltage gas (it is a gas composed of "particles" smaller than a hydrogen atom - smaller than an electron - very, very small fractional charges - Mendeleev's original periodic table of elements showed some of this) has MOMENTUM.

As it is moving, the HV diode slams shut and the voltage potential with its momentum slams against the diode...compressing it more and more...now that re-compressed potential...which is expanded 90 degrees from the wire has to go somewhere...the only path to ground as of now is the gap on the plug. That un-condensed/expanded potential is what causes the primary effect of the cold plasma.

Then, when voltage on the cathode/output of the HV diode drops below the annode/input of the HV diode, then and only then can LV source move out of it and over the gap.

The lv source is not the cause of the effect, it simply can boost the primary effect - which can be had all by itself with one small cap that is virtually empty when discharged to the primary.

Primary effect is that potential slamming against a diode.

Many think the simple hv spark jumping a gap is enough to ionize the gap to reduce the resistance enough to have the lv source follow it...that is simply a fairytale.

Only the recompressed potential against the diode's abrupt shut off can cause the cold plasma ionization that is necessary to allow the lv source to follow. At this circuit's scale of operation, this is all necessary to make these effects.

This is a method of "splitting the positive" that Bedini has shown for years in the open but nobody really got it. If I am wrong, I apologize and will correct all my explanations but until then, that's my story and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong but following the logic of all this, it is very consistent with what Tesla explained, it is consistent with other technologies that utilize this concept, etc...

Working of the Gray Tube

This will put what I'm saying into context with something that many people have studied but I am not sure anyone gets it. Many are convinced in all the free electron concepts in the Gray Tube, etc... McGratten mailed me a package about 7 years ago with that explanation but I always saw it happening in a different way.

The Gray Tube has a low voltage rod and high voltage rod. Low voltage rod has a diode on it that has the cathode/emitter pointed towards the gap. Low voltage source can be any low voltage source and Gray showed he used a 12v battery...the neg of that battery is connected to the neg of the HV capacitor at 3000-4000 volts and a few uf's. The + of the hv source goes to the hv rod.

(-)12vdc(+)diode->(gap)(+)3000vdc(-)

I have made the Gray tube analogy to the spark method and most have automatically thought that they look at 2 gaps and think they serve the same purpose. I'll show you why the 2 gaps have nothing to do with each other but why they are making the same effect. It is necessary to actually understand how the Gray tube works in order to see what the real analogies to the spark plug circuit are.

When the low voltage side is connected by commutator, whatever...the hv source immediately sees path to ground...it sees that the diode is open and has conductivity to the low voltage source which has conductivity to ground which is its own ground...it jumps and as soon as it moves through the diode for a small unit of time, the diode slams shut....only a small fraction of the hv potential made it through.

That hv potential from the cap slams against the diode and compresses against it very strongly forcing it to explode 90 degrees from the wire outwards...the only other path to ground it by going to the grids...through the electromagnet that pulses a magnet or other electromagnet to provide motive force on a motor to a + on another low voltage source and that lv source has a - that winds up being connected back to the hv -'s.

Take a balloon and push it flat against a wall. It compresses and the contents of the balloon wind up exploding 90 degrees perpendicular to the direction of original propagation.

------------
The gap in the Gray tube is simply a mechanism to get the HV to jump into a diode with a lv potential sitting on it so that it can move into it to have the diode slam shut to compress the potential against it.

The secondary discharge from ignition coil is a mechanism to get a HV to jump into a diode with a lv potential sitting on it so that it can move into it to have the diode slam shut to compress the potential against it.
-------------
The Grids on the Gray Tube are the secondary path for the expanded potential to move to ground.
The ground on the spark plug is the secondary path for the expanded potential to move to ground.
-------------
Here is what this method is:
You are giving the HV 2 paths to travel in order for it to move back to its own ground or relative ground.
1 path is a high resistance path
1 path is a low resistance path
---------------
The Gray tube high resistance path is out to grids back to ground.
The water sparkplug circuit's high resistance paths is over spark gap back to ground.
--------------
The Gray tube low resistance path is through the diode to lv side back to ground.
The water sparkplug circuit's low resistance path is through the diode to lv side back to ground.
---------------
1. The HV will choose the low resistance path FIRST
2. Diode slams shut expanding that potential
3. Expanded potential (electro-radiant event) has only the high resistance path left back to ground.
--------------
So when it is explained that the hv spark jumps the gap ionizing it to reduce the resistance of it and have the lv source follow it...is incorrect.
And seeing the analogy in comparision to the Gray tube, that popular explanation of how Luc's spark method works would be the same as claiming that this is how the Gray tube works:
The hv from the hv cap first jumps to the grids ionizing the air to reduce the resistance of it enough for the 12v battery potential to jump from the low voltage rod to the grids...all the while never needing the hv to jump the gap in order to slam against the diode.

We know the above is NOT how the Gray tube works but that is what people are claiming when they say the Spark plug circuit works by the hv simply going to jump over the gap to ionize it for the lv source to follow.